REPORT

NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
OFFICIAL REPORT
Tuesday, 2nd November, 2010
The House met at 2.30 p.m.
[Mr. Deputy Speaker in the Chair]
Page 21 Tuesday, 2nd November, 2010
Mr. Deputy Speaker: Question No.485 by hon. Kioni!
Question No.485
VEHICLES OF RETURNING RESIDENTS EXEMPTED FROM EIGHT-YEAR
RULE
Mr. Kioni asked the Minister for Industrialization:-
(a) to table a list of the number of vehicles belonging to returning Kenyan residents
which have been exempted from the 8-year rule for the last 5 years, indicating year of
manufacture, year and month of importation, name and passport numbers of the
beneficiaries; and,
(b) whether he could also provide details of the names, passport numbers, dates of
departure from Kenya, respective return dates and the organization each returning
resident was working for.
The Minister for Industrialization (Mr. Kosgey): Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to
reply.
(a) I hereby table a list of 186 names and details of cars, which are over eight years old,
belonging to returning residents who were exempted from the requirement of the
KS15152000, Legal Notice No78 of 15th July, 2005. Information on the year of
manufacture, year and month of importation, name and passport of beneficiary, and day
the Ministry issued the letter, is indicated on the schedule. The information covers the
period 2006 to 2010.
(Mr. Kosgey laid the document on the Table)
(b) The information required is also on the schedule I have just tabled.
Mr. Kioni: Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, the answer that has been given by the Minister is
inadequate. I say so because part (b) of the Question seeks details of the passport
numbers, the dates of departing from the country, and the dates those Kenyans came back
into the country. The enabling Act, partly, says as follows:-
Page 2 of 12
“The Minister may, on the advice of the National Standards Council, exempt any imports
from the provisions of this order where the Minister is satisfied that it is in the national
interest”.
If you go through the information on the document that has been tabled, you will notice
that out of the 186 vehicles that were exempted, the passport numbers of 85 of the
persons who received the exemptions are unknown. In other words, we do not even know
whether they had actually left this country.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, again, going through the list, you will see that out of the 186
persons listed here, the dates on which 125 of them left this country are unknown. We do
not even know whether they actually left this country. Again, out of the 186 who received
exemption, the dates on which 137 of them returned to this country are also not known.
Given that the Minister is supposed to give these exemptions on the advice of the
National Standards Council, and that he needs to be satisfied that such exemption is in the
national interest, could he tell this House the basis of those exemptions, how he received
the advice from the National Standards Council, and whether those people whom we do
not how they departed from this country and when they returned are actually Kenyans?
Mr. Kosgey: Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I have tried to be as comprehensive as
possible. You realise that the period covered is the last five years. I actually requested
this House to give me more time, because the information sought about passport
numbers, dates of departure, dates of return, and the countries in which the beneficiaries
23 Tuesday, 2nd November, 2010
were was not adequately tabulated. I requested more time and since that time, I have been
able to cover sufficient ground. If you look at the schedule, you will see that in the year
2006, we had 13 beneficiaries; 2007, 15 beneficiaries; 2008, 35 beneficiaries; 2009, 72
beneficiaries, and in the year 2010, 52 beneficiaries.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, the number of those beneficiaries we have indicated we
do not know where they came from is 16, 13 of whom are in respect of the year 2006.
Regarding the issue of passports, I have brought samples of the letters written by various
applicants. In some cases, copies of passports were not attached, but copies of the
logbooks were attached.
(Mr. Kioni stood up in his place)
Let me finish answering the question, hon. Kioni.
Mr. Mbugua: On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir.
Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Mbugua! Somebody is already on a point of
order!
Mr. Kioni: On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. The Minister has said
that the beneficiaries whose details are unknown are 16. According to the list he has just
tabled, the beneficiaries without passports are 85, which means that 47 per cent of those
who were given exemptions did not have passports. It is not known when 74 per cent of
them came back to the country. We do not even know when 67 per cent of them left this
country. Is he in order to mislead this House by alleging that only 16 beneficiaries have
their details missing while, according to the list that he has tabled, the facts are as I have
indicated?
Page 3 of 12
Mr. Kosgey: Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I was going to explain further---
Mr. Mbugua: On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir.
Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order, Mr. Mbugua! The Minister is responding to a point
of order! You still need to learn again!
(Laughter)
Mr. Kosgey: Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I agree that the details are not fully
covered, because of the five year period we were supposed to cover. However, each one
of the applicants wrote and said: “I am a returning resident.” I was going to quote one of
the letters. Many Kenyans returned home in 2009 and 2010 due to the global economic
meltdown. They lost their jobs because where they were working, the firms had financial
problems. So, they came back. At that time, the Ministry made a policy decision that
where there were Kenyans returning home for various reasons, we should allow them to
come with their old cars.
Unfortunately, not all of them attached copies of their passports on the
applications, but they were given exemptions. Also, not all of them indicated their dates
of departure, but they were given exemptions. If you look at the list, you will realise that
it is as comprehensive as we could possibly make it. Where we could find the passport
number and the date of departure, we have indicated. Unfortunately, as the hon. Member
has also explained, not all the details were provided.
24 Tuesday, 2nd November, 2010
Mr. Mungatana: Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, is the Minister satisfied that, in fact,
there is no racket on the list he has tabled? A cursory look at this list shows at No.92, on
page 28, one Abdi Ali, who brought in a Mercedes Benz tractor; at No.93, Abdi Ali,
Mercedes Benz Prime Mover; at 94, Abdi Ali, Mercedes Benz truck; at No.179, Abdi
Ali, Mercedes Benz tractor. How many times did this man leave the country and return?
Is the Minister satisfied that there is no racket or abuse of this facility? If so, what action
is he taking against those who have abused the facility?
Mr. Kosgey: Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. I am satisfied that there is no
racket. In the case of Abdi Ali, I will explain this because I know. I later re-examined this
case. This was a business man who ran a business in Uganda. He was doing construction
work and he had no business. He ran short of business in Uganda and he got a job in
Kenya. He wanted to re-relocate and he actually wrote in his application that he had
trucks and he wanted to come back and do the business here. So, really, it would have
been a punishment for me to tell him: “sell your assets and come back and do business.”
On many occasions, we have had also Kenyans who have businesses in Ethiopia, for
example, and they have been allowed to move their trucks, complete their business and
come back. In this particular case, we allowed this Kenyan to come back with his assets.
Mr. K. Kilonzo: Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. I want the Minister to
confirm and, indeed, to tell this august House why he is misleading it. I have with me a
list of 400 cars which this Minister has exempted within a period of six months which he
is not disclosing here. Assuming that the owner of each vehicle paid Kshs50,000 just like
the way his driver was caught by the Kenya Anti-Corruption Commission (KACC) while
soliciting for Kshs50,000, then it means in six months’ time, the Minister would have
made Kshs20 million.
I table the documents on the Table and want the Minister---
(Loud consultations)
Page 4 of 12
Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order! Order! We have express and explicit Standing
Orders and rules of engagement in our debates. You have a right to ask why these
vehicles have been exempted. You cannot impute improper motives on a fellow Member
of Parliament without a substantive Motion. Can you withdraw and apologise to the
House?
Mr. K. Kilonzo: Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, if you listened to me---
Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order! Order! Can you withdraw the remarks?
Mr. K. Kilonzo: Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I want to withdraw and apologize. But
if you listened to me, it was fairly hypothetical but I have withdrawn and apologized. But
my question---
Mr. Deputy Speaker: Prosecute the question with the professionalism and the
facts that will take you somewhere.
Mr. K. Kilonzo: Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. I wish to table here a list
of 400 vehicles which were exempted in the period between 1st January, 2010 and
31stJune, 2010. They are here, and I want the Minister to confirm or deny that indeed he
exempted these vehicles and under what circumstances he did so.
(Mr. K. Kilonzo laid the documents on the Table)
25 Tuesday, 2nd November, 2010
Mr. Mbugua: On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. The Minister has
powers to give the exemptions. I do not know why it is a big issue with our fellow
Members here because the Ministers have powers to give exemptions. Under Standing
Order No.81, could the hon. Member who has asked this Question declare his interest in
this Question?
Mr. Kioni: Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I asked this Question---
Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order! Order!
Mr. Kioni: The hon. Member for Kamukunji is a dealer of vehicles!
(Loud Consultations)
Mr. Deputy Speaker: Proceed, hon. Kioni! You understand the provisions of the
Standing Orders. If there is any interest you have to declare, you may actually declare
now.
Mr. Kioni: Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I have no interest to declare. On the reverse,
it is actually the Member for Kamukunji who should declare his interests because he is
the one who deals in vehicles. This Question has a lot to do with exemptions of people
who have brought vehicles beyond the eight year rule and only the Minister himself can
give these exemptions as allowed by the law.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, when you have vehicles in the region of 400 being
exempted within six months, as Members of Parliament, it is only logical and expected of
us to interrogate and check whether there is corruption in it.
Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order! Hon. Mbugua, you realize much as you are a first
timer, you have to declare your interest before you engage in any debate. Is it true that
you have an interest that you have not declared before you interrogate this Question?
Mr. Mbugua: Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I do not have any interest. It is only that
under the laws of this country, the Minister is allowed to give exemptions. I am not in
the business of selling vehicles. I retired five years ago.
(Laughter)
Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order! Hon. Minister, you may proceed. Hon. Mbugua has
Page 5 of 12
said he has no personal interest to declare. It is accepted.
Mr. Kosgey: Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. We were talking of this---
Mr. Deputy Speaker: The Chair cannot be satisfied or dissatisfied with the
declaration of interest until facts otherwise are proven on the Floor of the House. So
under the circumstances when a Member stands up and says I have no interest to declare,
the Chair has no business. He goes with the position of the Member until or unless
somebody else is in a position to prove otherwise.
Mr. Kioni: On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. It is in the public
domain that the Member for Kamukunji has been in court on matters relating to
importation of vehicles and for vehicles that needed to have been paid for, but were not,
for one reason or another. It is in the public domain that he is a dealer of vehicles.
(Mr. Mbugua stood up in his place)
26 Tuesday, 2nd November, 2010
Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order! Hon. Members, Standing Order No.81 states that:
“A Member who wishes to speak on any matter in which the Member has a personal
interest shall first declare that interest.” The word “shall” is mandatory, which means that
before you make any contribution, you declare your interest. It is in the HANSARD that
the hon. Mbugua has said he has no interest to declare in the matter on the sale of motor
vehicles.
Order! So whatever you know, you need to prove it on the Floor of the House.
Proceed, hon. Minister!
Mr. Kosgey: Mr. Deputy Speaker, Mr. K. Kilonzo has tabled a list here of some
400 vehicles. I am not aware of that list. We were talking specifically about this. I am not
aware of that list. I do not even know how authentic it is. But he has already withdrawn
and apologized.
An hon. Member: On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir.
Mr. Kosgey: Let me finish, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir.
Mr. Deputy Speaker: Proceed, Mr. Minister.
Mr. Kosgey: We are talking specifically about returning residents. If we are now
going to go into the total list of the people who have been exempted in the last few
months, then I need time to prepare that one.
This Question asks about returning citizens. The law is very clear. The purpose of
having the eight-year rule is to protect our environment. Since the cost of running an old
vehicle is high, it is also meant to protect the importer or the consumer. If somebody
imports an old car and sells it to somebody else, it is too expensive to run. So, the
purpose of saying that this law should be adhered to is to protect the environment and
also the consumer.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I note the figure of 400, but I cannot talk about it. I do
not believe that so many cars have been given an exemption. On several occasions, on the
advice of the Managing Director of the KEBS, I have given exemptions, particularly to
people who imported cars but took a lot of time to register them and, therefore, exceeded
the eight-year rule by, maybe, a year or two. They happen to have already paid duty.
After paying taxes they realized they could not register the car---
Mr. Oyongo Nyamweya: On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. Is the
Minister in order to tell the House that you can pay your duty and all the charges and fail
to register your vehicle? Once you have paid your duty and other charges, it is obvious
Page 6 of 12
that you get the car registered. That is not the reason.
Mr. Deputy Speaker: Hon. Members, the tabling by Mr. K. Kilonzo of a
document that is signed by the acting Managing Director of Kenya Bureau of Standards,
which indicates--- The letter is to the Commissioner of Investigations and Enforcement
Department, the Kenya Revenue Authority, Exemption from Eight-Year Rule
Requirement to Facilitate Registration of Vehicles. It states:
“This refers to your letter---“ The letter is indicated there.
“Enclosed herewith are details of motor vehicles which have been waived from
the requirements of KS 1515.”
The list contains 455 vehicles and covers waivers granted between 1st January,
2010 and 30st June, 2010. This is in line with the rules of the House and Standing Orders.
It is acceptable because it is headed and signed. So, I rule that this is acceptable.
27 Tuesday, 2nd November, 2010
Proceed, Mr. Minister and answer the question.
Mr. Kosgey: Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I have not had time to examine that list.
Actually people pay duty before registration; it is true that you cannot register a vehicle
before you pay your duty. Sometimes people pay duty and then they find that they have
exceeded the fixed time and then seek exemption. The same Managing Director would
advise them to seek exemption from the Minister. In the case of returning citizens, or
other citizens, who have incurred costs and the Government has collected revenue and
duties, we have allowed them to register the vehicles. We know very well that a lot of the
vehicles which are in the country and in our neighbouring countries of Uganda and
Tanzania are allowed up to 15 years. As I said, this rule is intended to protect the
environment. It is intended to also protect the consumer from very high running costs.
Whenever there is an exemption, the importer is required to pay, in full
Government taxes and other duties.
Mr. C. Kilonzo: On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. I do not know
whether you have noticed that the Minister has avoided responding to that issue. Is it in
order for the Minister to avoid responding to this particular issue of vehicles which are
past the cutline? I do not know what procedure would be required, because there is no
way you can get this permission without the Minister’s authority. So, there is no way
those 400 vehicles would have come in without authority from the Minister. So, could the
Minister address this particular issue?
Mr. Deputy Speaker: Allow the Minister to acquaint himself with the list.
Mr. Kosgey: Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, the original Question concerned returning
citizens. Now we are dealing with a large list here, which I have not had the time to
examine. The Chair has declared it is authentic because it is signed by the Managing
Director. Unfortunately, this list was not copied to me and I have not had time to
scrutinize it. It shows 400 vehicles. I am not sure that all these have been actually been
given an exemption by me.
Mr. Ethuro: On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. Is it in order for the
Minister to feign ignorance of a document of such nature and magnitude, given that the
only person who can exempt a vehicle that has exceeded eight years is the Minister? He
can only request you to allow him more time, so that he can come back to us and give a
satisfactory answer.
Mr. Shakeel: On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. Could somebody
Page 7 of 12
quote the section and the Act under which the Minister is empowered to exempt a
vehicle?
Mr. Deputy Speaker: You are out of order, Mr. Shakeel.
Mr. Mungatana: On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. Standing Order
No.97 is on disorderly conduct. It states as follows:
“Conduct is grossly disorderly if the hon. Member concerned (f) deliberately
gives false information to the House, or (g) refuses to answer a legitimate question by a
Member”.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, this matter borders on breach of this Standing Order. I
invite your ruling because he has given us a list of 186 vehicles. The document that has
been tabled here contains more than 400 vechiles which have been exempted in the last
six months. I invite your ruling to ask the Minister to go back and bring us proper
28 Tuesday, 2nd November, 2010
information, failing which we will have to cite and name him, because it seems there is a
problem here.
Mr. Mbugua: On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. The Question that
was asked concerns returning residents’ vehicles.
Mr. Kosgey: Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I can defend myself.
Mr. Mbadi: Mr. Speaker, Sir, you realize that my colleague has stood on a point
of order which is very serious because it borders on improper conduct by the Minister.
Looking at the Question critically, it requests the Minister to table a list of the number of
vehicles belonging to returning Kenyan residents. Based on this Question, I think the
Minister is not disorderly. However, if there is a question that requires the Minister to
supply the information of all the vehicles which should be exempted then the Minister
should be given a clear Question. We need to be fair to the Minister so that he can answer
adequately.
Kosgey: Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, that is what I was going to say. This Question
was with respect to returning residents during the last five years. In particular, I was
supposed to give details of vehicles, passport numbers and details of their departure and
return. I concentrated on that figure. With respect to this list, it is a very long list. This
letter was not copied to me. It was addressed to the investigation officer at KRA. It goes
on to say:-
“Due to the number of units, we are unable to attach in this list copies of letters
granting waivers”.
These are vehicles that have been given waivers but they are unable to confirm
who gave the waiver. It is true that I am the only person empowered by law to give that
waiver, on the advice of the National Standards Council. Going back to the Question, it is
clearly stated that it is in respect of Kenyan residents who are returning.
Ms. Karua: On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. It is true that the
question that was asked is about returning residents. However, noting that Clause 8 of the
regulations made under the Standards Act (Legal Notice No.78) - the same clause that
exempts returning residents is the same clause the Minister uses to exempt other vehicles
- the supplementary question on the list of 400 is a foreseeable and probable question. Is
it in order for the Minister to decline to answer that Question instead of asking for more
time to peruse and give this House a satisfactory answer?
Mr. Kosgey: Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I have actually barely analyzed this list. I
Page 8 of 12
really need time to analyze it since you have said it is authentic.
Mr. Deputy Speaker: For purposes of the Standing Orders of the House, look at
whether it is headed and signed. For that purpose, it is authentic.
Mr. Kosgey: Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, with respect to the Question, although Ms.
Karua says that it is foreseeable, I really did not anticipate a whole list of 400 vehicles to
have been given exemption by the Ministry. The Question is specifically talking about
returning residents. I have given the list of 186. If another Question is put forward to me I
will prepare the answer.
Mr. Baiya: On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. In view of what the
Minister has said; that he is not in a position to respond to the auxiliary aspects of that
question, is it not proper that he is given time to actually respond sufficiently to the
concerns by the Members? The matter is serious. We are talking about over 450 vehicles
being imported into the country within a space of six months. We know they are having
29 Tuesday, 2nd November, 2010
problems. Even the Kenya Revenue Authority (KRA) is holding some of these vehicles
in Mombasa with a view to selling them. The nation, therefore, needs to hear from the
Minister clearly what these vehicles are for.
Mr. Kosgey: Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I said that I could answer that as a specific
Question. If I am asked to prepare, I will give a suitable reply. With respect to the
importation, every year there are vehicles impounded. Usually they are crushed if they
are over eight years old. So, for all the vehicles that are already in Mombasa, normally
the KRA will arrange to crush them. I do not think any of those fellows are claiming that
they have exemptions. So they should be crashed.
Mr. Deputy Speaker: Minister, are you pleading for more time to look at this list
and come back to the House or you are saying that you have adequately answered the
Question that was asked and you feel that this can be addressed through a different
Question?
Mr. Kosgey: Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I feel that I have adequately answered the
Question that was asked. Any other matter concerning this exemption can be addressed
through a different Question.
Mr. Kioni: On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. The Minister is saying
that he feels he has answered the original Question adequately. However, it is crucial that
we note, if you are exempting cars of returning Kenyans and you do not know their
passport numbers, the dates the Kenyans left this country and the dates the Kenyans came
back to the country, how else did you proceed to exempt those vehicles?
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, Mr. Mungatana cited Standing Order No.97. It is true
that this Question has not been answered properly. The Minister has given false
information on those people who are returning because you are only returning if you have
a passport so that we know when you left and when you came back. Under Standing
Order No.97, if the Minister is not able to satisfy this House, I will ask that he be cited.
It is important to note that we have people in court who have been charged for
soliciting bribes so that they can be exempted. We do not know whether there is any link
between what is happening in the courts and the answers we are getting here.
Mr. Deputy Speaker: Minister, for the benefit of the Chair, what other categories
of vehicles can be brought into the country on tax-free basis which are above eight years
old other than for returning Kenyans? Can you elaborate on that for the benefit of the
Page 9 of 12
Chair, before I make a ruling on this matter?
Mr. Kosgey: Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, no vehicle has been given tax-free
exemption. I said that there are Kenyans who for one reason or another imported vehicles
claiming not to have known the eight year rule. Others find that by the time they clear
and pay duty, they have exceeded the eight year rule. For example, even these returning
citizens are people who brought cars manufactured in 2002 but by the time they register
such vehicles, they have exceeded by a few months or one year. In that particular case,
we have allowed them to register because the Government has already collected duty. I
would like to repeat that duty is collected before registration. You cannot register a
vehicle before duty is collected.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, there is no other category of people who have been
given exemption except returning residents and those Kenyans who would have incurred
losses after paying duty.
30 Tuesday, 2nd November, 2010
Mr. Deputy Speaker: Hon. Minister, ideally, apart from that list of 454, there is
nobody else who has the authority to give exemption from that eight years rule, except
yourself.
Mr. Mwathi: On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. The Minister is
giving the reasons as to why he exempts some of the vehicles. One of the reasons is that
some of them get late in payment of duties or registration. The other reason is that the
returning citizens are allowed to import vehicles which are over eight years old.
However, be that as it may be, I have been perusing this document and seen just out of
interest that there is one particular company--- I have letters here which the Minister has
signed. The exemption for this particular one is given to Panken Investment Limited on
17th June, 2010 and the car was manufactured in the year 2000. There are others which
were manufactured in the years 2000, 1999 and 1998. The same company has another
exemption on 8th June, 2010 for a vehicle manufactured in the year 2001. There are other
exemptions for the same company for vehicles manufactured in the years 2001, 2001,
1999, 2001 and 2001. There is a third exemption for the same company. Panken
Investments Limited was given exemption on 8th June, 2010 for cars of the following
years: 2000, 2000, 2001, 2001, 2001 and 2001. That is exactly two years beyond the time
which is required. All these letters are signed by the Minister for Industrialization, hon.
Henry K. Kosgey, EGH, MP. I want to table them here. It is only that one company
which has got 15 cars exempted, all being Toyota station wagons. Is the Minister in
order, therefore, to mislead this House that he only gives exemption for those ones which
are late in payment of taxes?
I wish to table the letters.
(Mr. Mwathi laid the documents on the Table)
Mr. Kosgey: Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I did say that the exemption is not because
of late payment of taxes but registration, because they all have to pay taxes. It is true that
under the law, it is only the Minister responsible for industrialization that has powers to
give exemption. I said at the beginning that where somebody has imported a car and
found it necessary while paying duty to register late, I have given exemption because of
late payment or registration. Therefore, I am not actually misleading the House.
Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order! Order! Hon. Minister, the Chair notes that when a
Question is asked, it has to be as exhaustively addressed as is possible. Even going by the
Page 10 of 12
spirit and letter of the Question itself, to table a list---
(Mr. Kabando wa Kabando consulted loudly)
Order! Hon. Kabando wa Kabando, one further consultation and you will spend
the rest of the afternoon outside this House!
The Question asks:
“(a) Could the Minister table a list of the number of vehicles belonging to
returning Kenyan residents which have been exempted from the eight year rule for the
last 5 years, indicating year of manufacture, year and month of importation, name and
passport numbers of the beneficiaries?
31 Tuesday, 2nd November, 2010
(b) Could the Minister also provide details of the names, passport numbers, dates
of departure from Kenya, respective return dates and the organization each returning
resident was working for?”
The Chair is satisfied that this is the information that under normal circumstances
must be within the domain of the Minister. Even the answer itself does have a lot of grey
areas in that it says the date of departure is not indicated. A lot of information is not
indicated. Essentially, it is in the knowledge of the Chair that, that information is
mandatory for the exemption itself to be given. Under those circumstances, the Chair is
satisfied that this Question has not been adequately addressed and would ask the Minister
to indicate how much time he needs for this Question to be exhaustively and
comprehensively addressed, including the possibility that this list which has been given
now could be also for returning residents. His answer should also include and any other
question that is supplementary and can be asked by hon. Members, including policy
matters.
Hon. Minister, how much more time do you need to be able to exhaustively deal
with this Question?
Mr. Kosgey: Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, you will recall---
The Assistant Minister for Livestock Development (Mr. Duale): On a point of
order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. In this House, the Kenya Broadcasting Corporation
(KBC) has been given exclusive rights to screen and dub the proceedings, but there is a
stranger in the House who is tape recording the proceedings of this House at the Gallery
and all hon. Members are seeing.
Mr. Deputy Speaker: Could the Sergeant-at-Arms ascertain the claims by the
hon. Members?
Mr. Kosgey: Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, you will recall that last week, I actually
sought extra time to be able to fill in the information which you are now asking. In some
cases, relating to the year 2006/2007, I have not been able to locate that information
despite even going to the Ministry of Trade. But nevertheless, I can endeavour after
looking also at that list, in the next two weeks, to answer again because it requires going
back to the archives and digging. I can endeavour to answer the Question in the next two
weeks.
Mr. Kioni: On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. The exemption of
vehicles in this country is done through a procedure and it is clearly spelt out how it is
given. This is done by the Minister on the advice of the National Standards Council and,
again, on matters of national interest. It is not conceivable that when these exemptions are
being given, the information that we are seeking will be scattered all over. It actually
Page 11 of 12
gives us a feeling that, perhaps, proper procedure has not been followed. But since this
information should be in a known place, seven days is adequate for the Minister.
Mr. K. Kilonzo: On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. My request is that
while the Minister endeavours to come and answer that Question, whether he can also
clarify to the House what matter of national importance he cited to exempt the 400
vehicles.
Mr. Ethuro: On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. I also wanted to
contribute in terms of time. When you look even at the numbering of Questions on the
Order Paper, there are Questions Nos.497, 507, 508, 502 and 476. This Question is
actually much earlier than the rest of the Questions that have been answered. So, I just
32 Tuesday, 2nd November, 2010
want to inform the Chair that the Minister really has no reason whatsoever, in addition to
what hon. Kioni has already stated in law, to seek for more time. Parliament cannot be an
excuse for an incompetent Government.
Mr. Kosgey: Thank you Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. I still request the indulgence of
the House because as I have said, at one time, the Ministry was called the Ministry of
Trade and Industry. Some of the information I have been searching for in respect to
2006/2007 is missing. I said that I need time to study that list. The first time that this
Question appeared in the Order Paper was last week. It may appear like an old Question
but, the first time it appeared was last week. I ask for two weeks which is not too much.
Mr. Deputy Speaker: Whereas the Chair appreciates that, indeed, there are many
of those vehicles whose papers as indicated here were processed in 2007, according to the
list that the Chair has here, there are only 28 of them. You still have, in addition to that,
100 plus more which were processed from April 2008 to date. The Chair is convinced
that one week is adequate. I direct that this Question---
Mr. Njuguna: On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. As the Minister
prepares to give us a statement in two weeks’ time, I request him to reflect on this
statement. Instead of crushing those vehicles, could he help by donating the unclaimed
vehicles to hospitals and schools?
Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Njuguna, you are out of order. It is not a
statement. It is a question. Secondly----
(Mrs. Odhiambo-Mabona stood up in her place)
Mrs. Odhiambo-Mabona: On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir.
Mr. Deputy Speaker: What is it, Mrs. Odhiambo-Mabona?
Mrs. Odhiambo-Mabona: Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, my point of order is that we
have been on this Question for the last one hour. As much as we have the right to
information, this is a Question and not a statement. The supplementary issues that hon.
Members are asking are tantamount to statements. If we want the Minister to answer
comprehensively, could we ask him to present a statement and not a question that would
take one hour?
Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order! The timing of the Questions and the transactions of
business here, the interest that it generates and the decisions on how long a Question
takes solely relies on one person; and that is the Chair. Hon. Odhiambo-Mabona, you are
out of order! Given the interest that this Question has generated and the importance to the
nation at large, the Chair directs that this Question be listed on the Order Paper on
Tuesday next week.
Page 12 of 12
(Question deferred)
Hon. Members, you will notice that the Chair has taken quite a bit of liberty to
allow a lot of leeway during Question Time. It is precisely for one reason more than
anything else. It is precisely because of the Government and Backbenchers inability to
generate sufficient business for the House. The Chair has been approached by the Deputy
Prime Minister and Minister for Finance. He said he is not in a position to move the
matter which is Order No.9 – the Competition Bill - in the Order Paper. Is that not so,
hon. Kenyatta?
The Deputy Prime Minister and Minister for Finance (Mr. Kenyatta): Yes,
Mr. Deputy Prime Minister. That is because we have to finalize with the Departmental
Committee. Therefore, we have agreed with the Committee – and the Vice-Chair is here
– that this matter is---
Mr. Ethuro: On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. The Minister is
speaking from the back, and last Thursday you ordered hon. Otuoma to----
Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order, hon Deputy Prime Minister and Minister for
Finance! You are out of order! Unless you have since resigned from the Government---
(Mr. Kenyatta moved to the Front-Bench)
The Deputy Prime Minister and Minister for Finance (Mr. Kenyatta): Mr.
Deputy Speaker, Sir, I apologize but as I said, we have agreed with the Departmental
Committee because there are still a number of outstanding issues that we need to iron out
before this Order is put back in the Order Paper.
Mr. Deputy Speaker: Fair enough! Is it still in the knowledge of the Chair that,
indeed, the Motion by the Departmental Committee on Finance, Planning and Trade will
not be moved today?
Prof. Kaloki: Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, we are in agreement with the Minister
that we need more time to consult. After that, we will come to an agreement and have the
issue put in the Order Paper.
Mr. Deputy Speaker: Fair enough. That one is, indeed, taken care of. What about
Order No.10? Will the Departmental Committee on Finance, Planning and Trade be in a
position to move the Motion today?
Prof. Kaloki: Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, we are ready to proceed with that Motion.
Mr. Deputy Speaker: Fair enough! Hon. Members, under the circumstances,
Question No. 497 by Dr. Otichilo, Question No. 507 by Mr. Warugongo and Question
No. 508 by Mr. Yakub are deferred to