Leader of Minority Francis Nyenze. |
Leader of Minority FRANCIS NYENZE spoke to our reporter GEOFFREY MOSOKU on the events of Thursday’s special sitting of the National Assembly that adopted a Motion seeking the removal of Kenya from the ICC. He shares his thoughts and how the opposition CORD is interpreting the move after staging a mass walk-out from the Chamber during the acrimonious debate
QUESTION: Why did you walk out of the House?
ANSWER: We didn’t want the country to pull out of the Rome Statute and as CORD we were not ready to be associated with such a move. We wanted Jubilee to pass and own the Motion since we believe it was ill-timed. So our move to walk out was to make a point.
ANSWER: We didn’t want the country to pull out of the Rome Statute and as CORD we were not ready to be associated with such a move. We wanted Jubilee to pass and own the Motion since we believe it was ill-timed. So our move to walk out was to make a point.
QUESTION: Why did the Jubilee leadership wait until now to initiate the withdrawal process?
ANSWER: I don’t know why they had to bring up the Motion at the eleventh hour. We have not understood what was so urgent and a matter of public concern to necessitate recalling of the House. The motive was suspicious and even if we pulled out of ICC, it will not impact the ongoing cases against President Uhuru Kenyatta and his deputy William Ruto.
ANSWER: I don’t know why they had to bring up the Motion at the eleventh hour. We have not understood what was so urgent and a matter of public concern to necessitate recalling of the House. The motive was suspicious and even if we pulled out of ICC, it will not impact the ongoing cases against President Uhuru Kenyatta and his deputy William Ruto.
QUESTION: Is it true that you had planned the walk-out well in advance because you knew Jubilee was going to apply the tyranny of numbers?
ANSWER: No. We never planned any walk-out; the move was spontaneous when it became clear that there was nothing of national importance to debate. So MPs from our side just decided to leave the Chamber. The Motion was ill-motivated and may end up hurting the ongoing cases. We believe that President Uhuru and Ruto will fight the case legally using lawyers but some idlers around them are being dishonest with them.
ANSWER: No. We never planned any walk-out; the move was spontaneous when it became clear that there was nothing of national importance to debate. So MPs from our side just decided to leave the Chamber. The Motion was ill-motivated and may end up hurting the ongoing cases. We believe that President Uhuru and Ruto will fight the case legally using lawyers but some idlers around them are being dishonest with them.
QUESTION: How do you intend to deal with this Motion now that it has moved to the next stage?
ANSWER: We will keep fighting it. Parliament is a House of debate and I will urge MPs from all sides to be sober and look at the intention of the Motion. Kenya cannot afford to be isolated by the international community by making one big blunder of removing itself from the membership of ICC.
ANSWER: We will keep fighting it. Parliament is a House of debate and I will urge MPs from all sides to be sober and look at the intention of the Motion. Kenya cannot afford to be isolated by the international community by making one big blunder of removing itself from the membership of ICC.
QUESTION: Is it true you are going to lobby for international support to ensure Kenya does not pull out of the ICC?
ANSWER: We have not planned for such a thing but if you can remember our leaders have consistently been on record pushing for the trials to return home. CORD principals, former Prime Minister Raila Odinga, former Vice-President Kalonzo Musyoka and Senator Moses Wetang’ula pushed for this. Raila tried in vain with retired President Kibaki to lobby MPs to form a local tribunal. Kalonzo led the shuttle diplomacy while Wetang’ula as Foreign Affairs minister played his part. CORD as you know honestly wishes the President and his deputy the best, and we believe they will clear themselves through lawyers, but not by pulling out of ICC.
ANSWER: We have not planned for such a thing but if you can remember our leaders have consistently been on record pushing for the trials to return home. CORD principals, former Prime Minister Raila Odinga, former Vice-President Kalonzo Musyoka and Senator Moses Wetang’ula pushed for this. Raila tried in vain with retired President Kibaki to lobby MPs to form a local tribunal. Kalonzo led the shuttle diplomacy while Wetang’ula as Foreign Affairs minister played his part. CORD as you know honestly wishes the President and his deputy the best, and we believe they will clear themselves through lawyers, but not by pulling out of ICC.
QUESTION: There is the argument that your party, Wiper, supported the withdrawal through the former VP’s shuttle diplomacy. What has changed?
ANSWER: Nothing has changed. As you know Kalonzo was leading the shuttle diplomacy in efforts to lobby the international community to refer the case back to Kenya. That has been the position. Neither Wiper nor Kalonzo have ever pushed for the withdrawal of Kenya from the Rome Statute. Wiper and indeed CORD believe that President Uhuru and Ruto can fight legally and win their cases at the ICC and that’s what we are still stressing. They can win this case but unfortunately, some idlers around them have now heightened tension and political temperatures in the country.
ANSWER: Nothing has changed. As you know Kalonzo was leading the shuttle diplomacy in efforts to lobby the international community to refer the case back to Kenya. That has been the position. Neither Wiper nor Kalonzo have ever pushed for the withdrawal of Kenya from the Rome Statute. Wiper and indeed CORD believe that President Uhuru and Ruto can fight legally and win their cases at the ICC and that’s what we are still stressing. They can win this case but unfortunately, some idlers around them have now heightened tension and political temperatures in the country.
QUESTION: What are some of your fears over this withdrawal threat?
ANSWER: Kenya will be seen as a failed State by becoming the first country to withdraw from the Rome statute. What Kenyans are also forgetting is that no lawyer from Kenya will be able to be appointed as judge to the ICC or any international tribunals. (Currently, Lady Justice Joyce Oluoch is a judge at theICC). Kenya may now be seen as a pariah State! Again, what if a rogue president ascends to power and decides to commit gross human rights violations, where will Kenyans run to? Moving out of ICC will entrench impunity and that is why we are opposed to this action.
ANSWER: Kenya will be seen as a failed State by becoming the first country to withdraw from the Rome statute. What Kenyans are also forgetting is that no lawyer from Kenya will be able to be appointed as judge to the ICC or any international tribunals. (Currently, Lady Justice Joyce Oluoch is a judge at theICC). Kenya may now be seen as a pariah State! Again, what if a rogue president ascends to power and decides to commit gross human rights violations, where will Kenyans run to? Moving out of ICC will entrench impunity and that is why we are opposed to this action.
QUESTION: Some leaders in the Jubilee government have said they can do without the support of Western countries. Please comment.
ANSWER: That’s wishful thinking! It may be their foreign policy. Even the economic difficulties we are experiencing in the country, leading to the high cost of living are a result of Western countries withdrawing aid to support our budget. The Western world controls 70 per cent of the global economy. The US is the largest economy followed by China but if you go to the other big economies like France, Germany, Britain and Japan, majority of them are from the West. Can you ignore them? Unfortunately, even our experts are being affected since the West is reluctant to do business with us and they are putting conditions for our exports due to ‘choices have consequences’ remarks.
ANSWER: That’s wishful thinking! It may be their foreign policy. Even the economic difficulties we are experiencing in the country, leading to the high cost of living are a result of Western countries withdrawing aid to support our budget. The Western world controls 70 per cent of the global economy. The US is the largest economy followed by China but if you go to the other big economies like France, Germany, Britain and Japan, majority of them are from the West. Can you ignore them? Unfortunately, even our experts are being affected since the West is reluctant to do business with us and they are putting conditions for our exports due to ‘choices have consequences’ remarks.
QUESTION: It has also been argued that Kenya made a mistake to ratify the Rome Statute because other countries did not sign. Please comment.
ANSWER: No. As you know majority of countries in the world, except the big ones, are members. Countries like US, China, Israel, Pakistan and others have unique histories and reasons for not signing. Some have well developed judicial mechanisms unlike ours. The ICC is the only body that would cushion wananchi from a despot and prevent a recurrence of violence. We all know that due to the fear of ICC, the country did not record any incident of election-related violence in the last polls. Who will be the godfather of Kenyans when the ‘big man syndrome’ grips the country?
ANSWER: No. As you know majority of countries in the world, except the big ones, are members. Countries like US, China, Israel, Pakistan and others have unique histories and reasons for not signing. Some have well developed judicial mechanisms unlike ours. The ICC is the only body that would cushion wananchi from a despot and prevent a recurrence of violence. We all know that due to the fear of ICC, the country did not record any incident of election-related violence in the last polls. Who will be the godfather of Kenyans when the ‘big man syndrome’ grips the country?
QUESTION: How will the process impact the image of the 11th Parliament?
ANSWER: We will be judged by the public harshly. The electorate we represent will condemn us harshly for recalling Parliament to discuss non-important issues such as pulling out of the ICC when they are hurting from the skyrocketing prices of essential commodities and the general high cost of living. The issue of VAT should have been the agenda — to find ways of cushioning the poor. Kenyans are suffering from a spate of insecurity incidents and myriad other challenges, which the House should have debated.
ANSWER: We will be judged by the public harshly. The electorate we represent will condemn us harshly for recalling Parliament to discuss non-important issues such as pulling out of the ICC when they are hurting from the skyrocketing prices of essential commodities and the general high cost of living. The issue of VAT should have been the agenda — to find ways of cushioning the poor. Kenyans are suffering from a spate of insecurity incidents and myriad other challenges, which the House should have debated.
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